Firstly Hello! to other cargame.nl users, as this is my first post.

Well, I consider myself a newbie so excuse my ignorance ......

I have been regularly connecting to various servers but I keep coming back to cg. I like the idea of the ranking system and I find other racers to be both helpful and considerate. It seems to be a server for racers rather than for people who just want to mess around.

Anyway, I am currently in Class 2+ and I'm using an FXO almost all the time.

Now, the crunch ..... my ..... er .... lap times!! (Now you know where this post is at!!)

On BL Historic, (I think, anyway, the one where the complicated turns have been straightened out) my best lap is 1:26:13 although I'm usually between 1:26:50 and 1:27:50! (This was a VAST improvement on my first times using the default 'hard track' setup!)

So then I tried setups from various sources and I read all the theoretical stuff (and tried to apply it, of course)
but I see that other FXOs are still a good 2-3 seconds faster. In a race I keep up (usually) down the long straight and sometimes even for the first lap and a half - but then they inevitably disappear. If I try to catch them I usually burn too much rubber, horrible tyre squeals prevail, and the last 2 laps are like driving on ice!

So is this due to:

a - a simple lack of experience? (I've only been with LFS about 2 weeks)

b - the fact that I am using a keyboard? - Do racing wheels help that much in overall control and therefore with better lap times? Or do they just make the 'racing experience' a bit more realistic?

Any help would be appreciated

Thanks

A and B, to be honest. But You should buy a wheel!

Welcome Bob

To answer your questions:
a. Yeah experience makes lapimes better, unless you are a naturally born race-talent (which I am not )
b. My wheeltimes are better than my mouse/keys-times. I think it helps to drive with a wheel. But there are quite ome WorldRecords who are made by keyboard or mouse users.

Maybe try the mouse/keys combo: Steer, throttle and brake with mouse. Shifting with keys.

Good luck and remember all the good things come slowly

PS FXO is a front tyre burning machine, so it's not you. Try braking without jamming them, go through corners without queezing and at end of corner use throttle. So: slow in, fast out. Saves tyres.

OK Thanks!

Litro - yes, I reckon a wheel has to be on the shopping list pretty soon.

Speedy J - good tip on the cornering, laps still high, in practice anyway, but more around the 1:26 than 1:27.
Slowly, getting there!!

Also forgot to mention before, I'm on auto shift (with the keyboard there are just too many keys to handle, at least for me!!!) - I suppose that aspect would be a definite possibility with a wheel + pedals.

Thanks again

Really, try the mouse and key-combo first. If you still like racing in let's ay four weeks then go shopping for a wheel.

Auto shift really is a lot slower than manual shift.

First: Hello Bob, and welcome to CG servers!

Now to the issue in hand. NEVER use autoshift . Autoshift is the thing that's raping your laptimes (Or atleast helping it), because under braking it ceeps changing down unconsistantly + it shifts up when IT wants, not when YOU need it the most + manual shifting helps under braking (Slow down quicker, can brake bit later )

Hope to see you soon!

T.Lomp

Oh yeah. BL11 is bumpy track and it shifts too early when You are on those bumps. I've tested it(keyboard+autogears with tbo @ BL11).

I am alot faster with mouse than with wheel. I bought the G27 a few months ago, but I am very clumsy with wheel. Unfortunately due to my current living situation, I can not hook the wheel up every time I want to race. So not alot of practice yet, but in theory wheel is faster than mouse.

Switching to manual gearing should help your laptimes alot. With manual, you can squeze more power out of the engine, and you can control engine brakeing alot better so that you can brake later into corners.

Oh, can see how You drive. Are You using handbrake in T1?
http://www.lfsworld.net/rafa/?raf1=BobBCN_BL1_FXO_127360&raf2=Ruben_Drifter_BL1_FXO_122310

Litro - Yes, I find T1 on BL the most difficult to get right, but at least I have learned to apply a slight touch on the handbrake, if I break too late that is.

So as I said, manual shift + keyboard is just not viable for me - can't get my head round the keys which would be six at least (turn left, turn right, brake) and (accelerate, gear up, gear down)- I'd need to take my eyes off the road!!!

The best bet seems to be wheel with auto shift, but for the mo until I get a wheel I reckon I'm stuck with auto shift.
BUT I will try the mouse/key combo as well.

I uploaded a hotlap (yeah, well maybe not so hot, eh, and it took ages to find out how to do it!!) of 1.27.36 but now I'm down to 1.27.19 on that BL track (the full one with chicane). I notice that nearly all the hotlappers use wheels!

And all of that will have to adjourned for a week as I'm off on a trip back to Blighty - but I'll be back, maybe with a wheel in the suitcase!!

Thanks again for all the tips and helpful comments.

Bob

Ehm, handbrake is a bit hardcore. You just need to brake in time and turn wheel in turn, thats OK.

And no need to worry about braking with the engine with a wheel IMHO. The normal brakes should be sufficient to do the task if set up and used correct. But dunno how it is with a keyboard/mouse.

With keyboard+autogears need to brake quite soon.

Depends alot on the car too. For instance, if you want to chop of meters of the braking distance with FZ2 it is paramount to be able to heel-toe and do proper engine braking. If I try achiving the same braking distance by just adjusting the brake settings, the brake balance is so far back it oversteers way too much if you brake while cornering. In general, I use engine braking on the FZ2 to adjust the brake balance as I go; little or no engine braking in the corners, and alot of engine braking in a straight line.

As far as I know if the brakes are adjusted and applied correctly, they alone should decelerate the car as fast as possible without the need of keeping the rpm as high as possible. Whether I put the brake balance rearward or use engine braking, both should have the same effect. But I'm nowhere near the limit on driving in LFS so I guess practically it all varies on the situation and driver.

I am a mouse driver, but I used to have a wheel. I found that when I changed to the wheel my times got worse at first, but then I got used to the wheel and I have to say it is better than mouse + keyboard. Now I am back to mouse + keyboard, but I am planning on getting a wheel in the next few months.

PS - Let me know if you want to part with that G27

PS2 - Do not use autoshift, you won't be competitive with it. Ever.

same in drifting infact.

ps3 - dont start with drifting.. its boring compared to racing.

def a wheel

So now I have a wheel!! But at the moment I would not dare go into MP mode!! I would be spectated for bad driving before leaving the pits. Well, maybe not that bad, but I reckon I'll need A LOT OF PRACTICE before I take the plunge.

Anyway, I am still getting the hang of the wheel/pedals and so I'm sticking to autoshift for the time being.

The wheel I have (on loan, second hand, well used) is a Logitech Wingman Formula Force GP.
I had a long struggle with that business of AxesFF etc but finally it works. When I installed the software there was a calibration setup and the pedals didn't get the green light - but when I launched LFS they worked.


But I can't seem to get the Force Feedback at all.

The relevant bits of my AxesFF page reads something like this:

Wheel turn: 500º
WT Compensation 0,99
Force strength 199
Throttle/Brake axes = combined
Gear shift mode: auto

The select function to assign axis is flashing still but I have steer on X axis, and thr/brk on Y axis.

At the bottom on the Force feedback I have clicked on YES, same as the Remove Deadzones option

Is there anything that looks odd to provoke an unresponsive Force Feedback? or maybe the wheel is duff in that respect?

Cheers

I've had the very same as my first wheel and I loved it! The downside is that pots started going out after a bit more than a year and there simply weren't spares to buy.

Force feedback is VERY strong and actually very good, gives you good feeling of the track and the car, so you must be doing something wrong there. When you calibrate it through Logitech Profiler it should give you the option to test it, did you try that and did you have FF then?
If not, check first if the cable from electric supply is connected well. Then see if the electric supply actually works.

Also, you should put the wheel turn to 180 degrees as it is its original limit. In LFS, look under "controls" section and see if FF is enabled and for how strong. It shouldn't be more than 40-50% if I remember well, because it does have strong FF.

Thanks for answering.

Yeah, I tried that Profiler but I got a no controller detected message. I also tried to download some Logitech Gaming Software but also had a problem as the system requirements were Windows XP or Vista and I have a brand new PC which came with Windows 7. Maybe that's the problem.
Thanks again.

Also, I imagine that as the FF doesn't work, I don't really need the power supply. Just with the usb into the PC everything works, but as I said, no FF.

Without power supply on wheel, you will not have FF.

Try this one, it helped someone. Just choose between 32 and 64 bit version.

Found this on Logitech forum too:


Hope it does help you to use FF, because it's completely different and much richer experience with it

Biggest bit of advice I can offer, as someone who only this year began racing with a wheel, is don't run before you can walk. A lot of the advice given in this thread is pretty advanced. Perfectly valid and good advice, but I would say you shouldn't worry about brake balancing and heel toeing yet.

Get uses to driving with the wheel. Note I said driving, not racing. Take a 30min practice session in single player just casually driving around a track. Get used to changing gears manually at slower speeds so you aren't concentrating on a million things. Get used to turning the wheel only as much as is needed and not over/understeering into ever wall/gravel trap.

Once confident, go that little bit faster for a lap or two, then a bit more for the next lap. Anytime you find yourself crashing, slow down a little and practice your line some more.

Good luck

Without force feedback a wheel is pretty worthless in my eyes.

surely it still better than a mouse or keys for having better control over the car, feedback or not.
Obviously there is better "feel" with feedback, but its easier to wind on opposite lock using the wheel rather than moving the mouse, I had no luck trying to catch slides with the mouse

... and force feedback is the first one to give you information that a car is loosing back end, before you can see it.

If only you could get the feeling in your guts when the back end is about to go!
If someone made a feedback system that could give you those kinesthetic cues that you get in real life without having to resort to <THIS> then the tail happy buggers (LX6, RAC, FZ5) would be a hell of a lot more manageable in my opinion

Well, if you are a jedi I bet you can handle yourself without any force feedback

How about some sort of micro circuitry implanted at the base of the skull, "patched" directly into the brain stem, with either a USB or Firewire connection.
Throw in some clever software that intercepts the force feedback signals from LFS, plug ya self in and Bob's your aunties husband.
The tricky bit is going to be figuring out all the "wiring" and connections in the victims,,, I mean, volunteer's neck.

I mean, the last thing you want is to hit a tyre wall and immediately evacuate your bowels, simply because a connection was wrong.

Any volunteers?

No?

Strange!

I though you were volunteering for the augmentation then ombit. I have a basic understanding of anatomy and my mates sister is a doctor so I can ask here for some pointers

Well, with that and my limited knowledge of programing, plus one of my friends is a nurse (Sure she'll help), I think we are ready to start. We're on to a winner here mate.

Fame and fortune awaits.
Or possibly prison and poverty.

So if you had a wheel with no FF, and no other wheel, you'd use the mouse and keyboard instead?

I doubt that.

You don't make sense at all. Just because he said he prefers a wheel with force feedback rather than one without you assume that he would prefer anything else to the wheel without force feedback? Mind explaining your line of thought?

My explanation:



If the only wheel a guy can get is one without FF, it's not worthless.

hm, well, yes. Now I get it

No, I just do not race at all... Why do you think I race that rarely?

XFG on BL1 with KB is a bit doable but thats because I practiced that for like 5 months before the S2 era

That's also why I think many demo'ers trick themselves that the can stay with keyboard if they buy a LFS license. At least try the cheap Harvey and Sandeman gamepad solution if you can't afford a decent wheel.

Are you calling sandeman and harvey cheap?

This...
post48492.html#p48492

...Shizzle... Is cheap yeah

Ah, but mouse and keyboard is doable

witchcraft I tell you!